tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post8418771221985248555..comments2024-03-27T17:34:04.375+04:00Comments on Random Magus: Against the Tide!Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10719992587281654845noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-60259599866677569762007-07-26T02:14:00.000+04:002007-07-26T02:14:00.000+04:00.. to opening another can of worms!.. to opening another can of worms!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10719992587281654845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-45039963444352180372007-07-26T00:25:00.000+04:002007-07-26T00:25:00.000+04:00It could be the same duck, we just don't expect it...It <EM>could</EM> be the same duck, we just don't expect it, so tend not to look closely. When I stop being lazy, I should be doing free will v. determinism soon. That should get us closer.No Replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13897528591850712444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-78480705585682593672007-07-24T17:45:00.000+04:002007-07-24T17:45:00.000+04:00So it can't be the same duck can it? As there is n...So it can't be the same duck can it? As there is no sensory experience or knowledge of that fact?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10719992587281654845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-23400047657797678212007-07-24T05:48:00.000+04:002007-07-24T05:48:00.000+04:00Random Magus, so if you want to attempt to reconci...Random Magus, so if you want to attempt to reconcile what we are saying, we have to have an understanding of what we mean by knowledge. If you are using a priori in the sense of knowledge that can exist independent of a physical mind (like Plato saying the soul has complete knowledge, we forget at birth, then try to remember in life), I would disagree on this understanding of knowledge. <BR/><BR/>For example the planet Earth might have existed in a state that we experience it now prior to humans living on it, but I would argue that the <EM>knowledge</EM> of the planet Earth did not exist until the humans appeared and started experiencing and thinking about it and communicating about it. Knowledge of something is different than the thing itself that knowledge refers to. <BR/><BR/>So there could be a planet somewhere in space that we have no knowledge of. There is potential for experience of this planet, but until we acquire empirical data, the knowledge isn't valid. Without some form of empirical data I can believe in an imaginary planet all I want, but that doesn't make it real. If this were not the case, then fiction would not exist. Everything I would write would be real somewhere. That seems absurd at every level.<BR/><BR/>We can have speculative knowledge that points us in a direction. I might say that I believe a planet exists out in space that is just like Earth with people on it. This is speculative knowledge, just like fiction, it isn’t real, but it serves a purpose. It gives us something to do or something to look for, something to test for empirical evidence. The object (planet) will either exist or not, but the knowledge isn’t real until we acquire empirical data. <BR/><BR/>One last point that confuses the empirical vs. rational debate is that the mind itself collects or creates data. Arbitrary denotations can be considered knowledge, like defining a unit as being one thing and the Arabic number one sign to represent this. This concept can’t be directly experienced through the senses, yet it is an example of “knowledge” that is created by the mind, or agreed upon. From this concept of a unit we can build an entire logic system apart from sensory input. So this kind of theoretically knowledge I could understand as being part of both sides.No Replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13897528591850712444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-88582779887813776702007-07-24T00:59:00.000+04:002007-07-24T00:59:00.000+04:00The Domestic Minx: Strength of spirit and faith in...The Domestic Minx: Strength of spirit and faith in yourself are sometimes acquired through arduous effort. I guess life teaches it goes on with a lot with its sameness and routine with moments of revelation thrown in, in the midst of crises.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10719992587281654845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-17347393552448221182007-07-24T00:55:00.000+04:002007-07-24T00:55:00.000+04:00Greg: If you can't prove anything you don't have e...Greg: If you can't prove anything you don't have experiential knowledge how can you disprove the same? From Siddhartha to an argument for or against empiricism, the river did throw us of course.<BR/>But anyway<BR/>You argue that no knowledge of the external world beyond our own minds, holds true without experience, that being our sole source of information. <BR/>Ideas and any truths about the external reality they represent can only be known, on the basis of sense experience. <BR/><BR/>While I can argue that there are some truths that are known a priori. And there are ideas that are innate and to each of us and sometimes more real and superior to us than sensory knowledgeAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10719992587281654845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-68970327203935432152007-07-23T05:27:00.000+04:002007-07-23T05:27:00.000+04:00Vanity of vanities; all is vanity!!It is tempting ...Vanity of vanities; all is vanity!!<BR/><BR/>It is tempting to think we can, like King Canute, hold back the tide with our own power.<BR/>And while it may seem the easy option to travel like a twig on the shoulders of a mighty stream it requires strength of spirit to allow things to happen organically and without a rage against the dawn. The older I am the more I realize the power of simply being.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-60359036315296692462007-07-23T04:47:00.000+04:002007-07-23T04:47:00.000+04:00Random Magus, regarding the three analyst comparin...Random Magus, regarding the three analyst comparing notes, there are two possibilities. First assume they are all intelligent. It is possible for those three to look at the same thing from different perspectives and describe three dissimilar experiences. There is a story about this using an elephant and three people describing three different parts of the elephant (like the trunk, foot, and tail). They all describe something different because they can only focus on a little part of it. <BR/><BR/>Other people might disagree because they just don't know what they are talking about and make stuff up. They might say the cats are spreading disease so go around and kill all the cats. This is not the same case of a different perspective; this is just a case of stupidity, talking with confidence about something one has no actual experiential knowledge of.<BR/><BR/>Plato is very clear what he means. He is saying that what we experience is vicarious, second-hand. We do not see the actual thing but only the shadow of the thing. And people are confusing the shadow of the thing for the thing itself. He doesn't really explain what the cave or the people are themselves; he is only concerned with the shadows. He has lots of problems with his argument and many many philosophers have torn him apart. Oddly, modern belief is still based on his ideas of objective truth.<BR/><BR/>Regarding education, he had a lot of specific ideas that are also outlined in <EM>The Republic</EM>. He hated poetry because he claimed poetry was a copy of a copy (basically). Or a shadow of a shadow. Poetry described the shadows, so it is once more removed from the objective. Contrary to this, in talking about education, he advocates teaching convenient lies. Basically teaching propaganda to keep people in line. He is often described as a fascist with good reason.No Replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13897528591850712444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-15796771384420759242007-07-23T00:20:00.000+04:002007-07-23T00:20:00.000+04:00Greg: Was watching Bloomberg and three different a...Greg: Was watching Bloomberg and three different analysts had three very different ideas/predictions/interpretation of the same thing. Something like the color red itself can be seen by someone as sexy and someone else as too out there.<BR/>Plus didn't Plato have the view that education was the forcing of thoughts into the minds of children? <BR/>Maybe being in the cave itself signifies that. According to him we all have within us the ability to think and if one does not understand, this is because one is held back by any number of things [maybe those are what the shadow are?. <BR/>If I am not wrong isn't that what Plato was talking about?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10719992587281654845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-51214063637353950142007-07-22T23:49:00.000+04:002007-07-22T23:49:00.000+04:00Random Magus, not everything is left to interpreta...Random Magus, not <EM>everything</EM> is left to interpretation. I argue the point often that we as a society often just agree on certain denotations. Like the color red, we point to something and say that is red, and everyone nods their heads and says ok we'll call that red. There is not a lot of interpretation going on there. A lot of our life is based on this kind of random denotation.<BR/><BR/>Telling a story is different from teaching. The listener or reader must insert his/her own meaning into the story. Teaching, pulls the student toward some predefined goal. Although, many students listen to teachers like they were listening to a story, and they insert their own meaning.<BR/><BR/>Going back to the forest path. A story is like a tree that you stop to look at and maybe admire and take time to follow every branch before you continue walking down your path. A teacher is someone you meet along the way that actually diverts you off of the path you were following.<BR/><BR/>I'm only arguing against the model Plato (and in a way Buddhists) set up and saying that if there is some falsehood that you left behind, it is illogical to try to return to the falsehood to make truth out of it. To me it seems like running back into a burning building to try to put the fire out from inside.<BR/><BR/>I am not arguing against teaching in general. But teaching is done by people like you and me, not enlightened beings, but beings who are just as flawed as you and me. Anyone who claims enlightenment is walking a circular path that never leaves the forest.No Replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13897528591850712444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-36829462854059446972007-07-22T19:28:00.000+04:002007-07-22T19:28:00.000+04:00Shine: Thanks for stopping by and sharing. I think...Shine: <BR/>Thanks for stopping by and sharing. I think the most difficult part is the one in which we are deciding. It's the Damocles sword, to do or not do, making the choice is tough, but once you decide and are resolved, the human will to survive will always end up showing us the route and how to survive in it. Once we have made the adequate preparations for the journey ahead, we do eventually make it.<BR/>Best of luck to you on yours!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10719992587281654845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-83294288154804827902007-07-22T18:50:00.000+04:002007-07-22T18:50:00.000+04:00Random,Thank you for the sharing...I've also been ...Random,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the sharing...<BR/><BR/>I've also been pondering whether I should let life take me wherever it takes me, or I make my own choice and strike on a different route. Recently I decided to do it myself, but the struggle was and still is a struggle and it could be pretty scary sometimes. I basically have revisited all my bottomlines that I'm aware of. <BR/><BR/>My experience is: you just know it when the time comes. But before that, it's a pretty long struggle. <BR/><BR/>This time, I decide to swim upstream and the tide is not as strong as I thought I would be so far.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-64709849910331148832007-07-22T14:54:00.000+04:002007-07-22T14:54:00.000+04:00Epimenides:My legendary impatience has got me into...Epimenides:<BR/>My legendary impatience has got me into more than one problem. I too think that when you know and are confident you can wait and let things happen. But not to do seems like taking a big leap<BR/><BR/>Alexys Fairfield: Hi and thanks for stopping by. It all does hinge on faith in one's self, faith that we eventually will choose whether to do or not as a calculated choice or decision based on a truth valid for us.<BR/><BR/>Sage: I've read that book at different intervals of my life as well. Unfortunately lost my copy while shifting :(<BR/><BR/>Greg: Everything is left to interpretation in literature, philosophy and religion, so maybe each of our interpretation is itself an illusion. We believe what we choose to and what we have experienced as part of our life truths. Sharing stories, teaching others or any other way you choose to define it, in the end is showing what we have learnt to others so that they too can be part of what we see. I think it's a basic need in all of us to share what we know with people that we want to be able to see the world as we do.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10719992587281654845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-69172509860143139002007-07-22T07:47:00.000+04:002007-07-22T07:47:00.000+04:00"If everyone could find their way out or find the ..."<EM>If everyone could find their way out or find the path on their own then everyone should leave teaching and not attempt to make their perspective visible to anyone else.</EM>"<BR/><BR/>I'm a little confused here, mostly on the last part "<EM>and not attempt to make...</EM>"<BR/><BR/>A big problem with the Allegory of the Cave is that if everything is illusion or shadows of something more objective, then the people in the cave are not real either, so there is no need to go back for them; they aren't really in there.<BR/><BR/>There wasn't only one buddha. A buddha is just one who reaches enlightenment, so there could be a lot of them. You may be thinking about a specific buddha, Siddhartha Gautama. Or you may be thinking about samyaksambuddhas in general, the ones who teach what they learn to others. I believe (gut feeling) that classical Greek thinking was actually influenced by Eastern philosophy. So I think Plato's Allegory of the Cave probably comes from regions near India. There are a lot of correlations between classical Greek thinking and some Asian philosophy. So yeah I would say a samyaksambuddha fits what Plato is describing fairly well. <EM>But</EM>, I strongly disagree with Platonic <EM>and</EM> Buddhist philosophy on many levels. <BR/><BR/>On one hand I would respond to Bobby and say that paths are individualistic things, personal journeys. On the other hand, we should still share our experiences (tell our stories) because paths are not linear, nothing is linear. Our paths cross all the time. Sharing stories helps us understand what is around us at any given time. This is like walking down a path through a forest. You must take in the surrounding forest to fully understand it. You cannot just focus on the path.No Replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13897528591850712444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-14473700389605539382007-07-22T07:10:00.000+04:002007-07-22T07:10:00.000+04:00I love Siddhartha--I probably read it a half dozen...I love Siddhartha--I probably read it a half dozen times between High School and the first year or so after college--it's the only book I've read that way. I like the idea of being the ferryman--taking people across the river.sagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17499891950639742366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-81849180213891806802007-07-22T01:46:00.000+04:002007-07-22T01:46:00.000+04:00Everyone has their own river that they must swim. ...Everyone has their own river that they must swim. That requires an action. If we don't swim, we surely will sink. If we have faith in the river, it will carry us home to consciousness.Alexys Fairfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13486319246332212531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-88576745751841456442007-07-22T00:10:00.000+04:002007-07-22T00:10:00.000+04:00Impatient is my middle name! What I've learned, th...Impatient is my middle name! What I've learned, though, is that this lack patience indicates inner fear, raised really from lack of confidence!<BR/>On the other hand, the ancient greek myth of the drowning man, says "use your hands to float while praying to Athena" (very loosely translated!)<BR/>Confidence or lack there of, I can not be convinced that inaction is the proper course!Epimenideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04991177606238754948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-82341335367690531642007-07-21T23:06:00.000+04:002007-07-21T23:06:00.000+04:00The Real Mother Hen: You put it so well - getting ...The Real Mother Hen: You put it so well - getting stuck is what I get scared of as well. The funny thing is that if we don't let ourself go we'll never find out<BR/>Sometimes it all gets so confusing to me.<BR/>I guess it would ultimately boil down to having in one's ability to do the best they can and revel in that bestAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10719992587281654845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-85615201165345068852007-07-21T22:54:00.000+04:002007-07-21T22:54:00.000+04:00Wu Wei - I've the same struggle as you Random. I'...Wu Wei - I've the same struggle as you Random. I'd like to flow with life and be carried to the sea, but what happens if I don't get to the sea, but stuck in some stinking mangrove swamp and eaten by giant crocodile? <BR/>Arh!The Real Mother Henhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13226727195920798035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-68270158866622398982007-07-21T22:29:00.000+04:002007-07-21T22:29:00.000+04:00If everyone could find their way out or find the p...If everyone could find their way out or find the path on their own then everyone should leave teaching and not attempt to make their perspective visible to anyone else. Wouldn't you say Buddha was one who went out of the cave and came back and tried to spread their vision?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10719992587281654845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-14436797077579514192007-07-21T21:56:00.000+04:002007-07-21T21:56:00.000+04:00Random Magus: there is hypocrisy to going back int...Random Magus: there is hypocrisy to going back into the cave. The underlying premise is that the cave and its shadows are a great illusion. So anyone who goes back is accepting that illusion as somehow real. Plato should have gotten this, and maybe he did. The only thing we have left of his writing is the popular stuff (the dummy books for the masses). I would be interested in reading the stuff he actually intended for his students which were lost to us. To go back into the cave is to support illusion, to support the poetry which he hated. The people inside are part of that illusion; their "real" selves, based on Plato, should be outside.<BR/><BR/>Bobby: should everyone study Aikido, of should everyone master <EM>something</EM>? My belief is that any path someone chooses is equally valid. It is not the path, but the destination that is important. So I would disagree, because while that might be the right path for you, and maybe a few others, it would not be the best path for everyone. This is the same idea of Random Magus trying to get back into the cave to drag someone else out. Each has to find their own path.<BR/><BR/>I never bought into the idea of a peaceful warrior, except if you are talking about calmness. The idea of peace is a recent concept of martial arts. It is the result of religious doctrine overcoming martial doctrine. If peace is the goal, then you can do away with the martial aspect, something like yoga would be more appropriate (and is a good example of religious overcoming martial doctrine). <BR/><BR/>When anyone talks about peace, what they are talking about is their personal peace, the peace of their own culture. As soon as an opposing culture conflicts, then one must either become extinct or fight. At this point peace clearly shows itself for what it is, self-preservation. This is why the early monasteries learned martial arts, for this type of peace, self-preservation, peace from the enemies, the kind of peace that allows them to "peacefully" kill the enemies.<BR/><BR/>A person cannot be a real writer without writing. A martial artist cannot be a real martial artist without fighting. Not pretend fighting in rings, but real fighting in battle. At some point every martial artist has to deal with that decision, the decision whether or not to kill another human being. Morihei Ueshiba knew that well and he attempted to move away from battle, but you have to understand that is where he is coming from, he comes from the direction of killing. Most people come from a different direction, so for them, to follow him would lead them closer to battle.<BR/><BR/>Ueshiba is one you could say went out of the cave and attempted to come back in to help others out. This goes back to my remark that once you are out, coming back in makes you a shadow again, incomprehensible to the people sitting and watching. You come from a different perspective that they cannot comprehend.<BR/><BR/>Someone close to me used to say, "<EM>A full bottle of wine makes no noise</EM>."No Replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13897528591850712444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-50628832484691028072007-07-21T18:30:00.000+04:002007-07-21T18:30:00.000+04:00Bobby Revell: Peaceful resolution of conflict - th...Bobby Revell: Peaceful resolution of conflict - that would be great, now if only I could learn how to do it.<BR/><BR/>Jean-Luc Picard: Thank you<BR/><BR/>Aldon Hynes: I'll do thatAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10719992587281654845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-64809836007632381932007-07-21T17:22:00.000+04:002007-07-21T17:22:00.000+04:00I've just put up a post on my own blog Orient Lodg...I've just put up a post on my own blog <A HREF="http://www.orient-lodge.com/node/2386" REL="nofollow">Orient Lodge</A> where I explore this a little further, with some Bob Seger mixed in. Stop by and say hi.Aldon Hyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00527868669926331034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-5963019732431946482007-07-21T14:07:00.000+04:002007-07-21T14:07:00.000+04:00A most post that was worth reading as it makes one...A most post that was worth reading as it makes one think.Jean-Luc Picardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01689798190618944262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7113737536590192234.post-20689364389008854422007-07-21T14:03:00.000+04:002007-07-21T14:03:00.000+04:00I really like Greg's reply, very nice. I've studie...I really like Greg's reply, very nice. I've studied Aikido and Hapkido for a number of years and in my opinion I would highly recommend everyone to study Aikido. Today, in the west where we have such a opinionated, self-righteous society - the teachings of Aikido's founder Morihei Ueshiba could benefit all of us. The peaceful resolution of conflict, wouldn't that be nice? Too bad most humans are simply, well...ANIMALS!Bobby Revellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05225540511858755945noreply@blogger.com